Friday, January 18, 2013

Django Unclean, X-Rated Hobbits and Reality TV Gurus

Dog Poet Transmitting.......

May your noses always be cold and wet.

I mentioned the film “Django Unchained” the other day. I have seen it and it is a vile piece of shit. Apparently it is stirring controversy in all sorts of places. Spike Lee is getting hammered and called an Uncle Tom for trashing the film. Dick Gregory appears to have lost his mind. “Roots” is being called unreal and Django as being precise and powerful truth; insane in the membrane! What stuns me is that it got nominated for anything but I suspect the nomination process is similar to the way people win Nobel Prizes; speaking of complete absurdity. Tarantino is no stranger to gratuitous violence for nothing more than pandering effect. The last however many minutes of the films brings this out in graphic detail and also adds the outrageous and unbelievable, assisted by pure comic book effects.

What is truly strange and which came to my attention in the process of my research, is what is apparently happening in The Hobbit, which is supposedly filled with the use of the 'N' word. Peter Jackson says that's how they talk in Middle Earth and that you can blame Tolkien, not him. I read The Hobbit any number of times and I don't remember a single instance of the use of that word. I haven't seen the film yet but I will in the next few days.

There is a massive amount of insanity going down these days. I came across so many outrageous news items that I just threw in the towel. Most of these came as links from a site called The Grio, where I wound up as a result of looking into responses to “Django Unchained”. However, there are all sorts of things that tweak my antenna; I thought the economy was in trouble (I lost the link to all these pricey weddings taking place in an English castle). I suppose it really depends on who you are. No matter what, public monies are still being spent on really important things where we all learn a lot. We also learn that the people directly responsible for specific injuries are not actually responsible. One thing for sure, one of Zionisms big ticket income zones is steaming right along. Let's just go back to soft drinks being the blood of Jesus for a moment and check out PepsiCo; amazing folks, truly amazing. As anyone should know by now, it is the artificial sweeteners that are behind the massive weight gains in the places where people consume them from 55 gallon drums.

Germany wants its gold back, so the French have attacked Mali. It becomes increasingly clear that possibly most of the gold that was previously imagined to be in the Central Banks and much of which is tungsten filled, like some kind of bizarre financial Twinkies, is no longer anywhere that anyone knows about. It draws the mind back to The Twin Towers and all that gold that was there in the basement. Let's face it, something truly weird is happening behind the scenes. We know that Israel and The Satanists are somehow involved in this massive disappearance of gold. I don't care one way or another about gold myself, though I recognize that it means a great deal to a lot of other people, who equate it with a power it doesn’t confer, except in some temporary fashion.

This brings me back to Thiruvannamalai where I happen to be at the moment. I want to throw this out there so as to reinforce the way I felt shortly after I got here and the way I have been feeling in an increasing sense since. As you read down thru the commentary of people, who have been around here for years, you get an idea of what I have been saying about the impact of westerners on me as I move about through these environs. The sheer weight of phony gurus, in this area, is enough to sink the entire locale down into some subterranean smoke hole. I've been up close on some who have zero light and who come off with the same glib bullshit I have seen so many times, in so many places. It is embarrassing. It is offensive. It is like reality TV, with the same quotient of reality.

Last night, Gopal, my auto rickshaw driver stopped by and we were talking about some of these people. He really dislikes Mooji and has lots of experience with his trip here and the people who have come to see him. He thinks I should be doing this sort of thing and has offered to make up posters and publicize me for a series of public Satsangs (grin). That really made me laugh but it also warmed my heart. This guy is very hooked up here and when I had my problems some days ago, he stepped in and made everything work and is responsible for where I am and the fact that things were not a lot worse. Without him, I might have been duck soup.

I keep reminding myself that this is only a small part of India and there is no telling what might transpire at some further reach. Initially I wanted to go to Goa and Rishikesh; possibly to Varanasi as well ...but my finances aren't in order for these things, as it stands today. Still, you never know what can come out of the blue and if I am supposed to be certain places, I certainly will be.

The thing that impresses and disconcerts me, is that all of the things I was feeling in the first few weeks after I got here have turned out to be exactly what was percolating under the surface. Somehow, very soon after I got here, I had a very accurate read of everything taking place, without any actual exposure to it. Now, what I was feeling all along is confirmed every day and also elaborated on in the most uncanny ways. Gopal and I were driving into town yesterday, when he pulls alongside some guy on a bicycle and exchanges greetings. I noted the guy, a westerner of about my age; no real vibe to speak of. I thought he was some kind of tourist. As we ride away, Gopal tells me he is a spiritual teacher. Heh heh, I definitely didn't get that but... maybe I don't know what a spiritual teacher is anymore.

The only people who have impressed me here so far are Abul and Tulsia. They are authentic for certain and Abul is one of the most intelligent and articulate people I have met in a long time. He could set himself up as a spiritual teacher at any time but he's got too much class and integrity for that. Also, some of his friends, like Wendel, the western artist from Indiana (years ago) have made an impression on me, with their humanness and in some cases, humor. Abul seems to know everyone and is a great collector of all the right people, with a couple of exceptions (grin) that turn out to be entertaining (from the perspective of a behavioral scientist) when not downright annoying. Between Abul and Gopal, we're looking at real time 'six degrees of separation' at all times.

It is the usual uncanny that what happened to me, happened as soon as Abul left town, to go work on the books he is in the process of having published. It was an agonizing period for me but, typically, it is all now worked out if it never happened in the first place.

Sunday, I go to see a very insightful (so I am told) Ayurvedic doctor and that should prove interesting as I am prepared to begin dropping some long term habits that are probably not good for anyone, long term. I'm told he has the necessary remedies. This is something I've wanted to do for a long time and now that is going to happen; at least I will experience the interaction. I had to wait two weeks for the appointment.

I must say that the biggest surprise for me here has been the large crowd of individuals running around and claiming to be enlightened. I would have expected that in Goa or Pune, where the Osho-b'gosh ashram is and nearly everything costs money and you have to exchange your money for Osho tokens and you can't change them back if you want to leave. Lots of people are complaining about that place but I didn't see the point in linking up all of these locations because the reader can find out all of this stuff on their own, should they have an interest. I'm not going to comment on Osho, which is actually what that's all about because too many people will jump on me for my observations (grin); different strokes for different folks, I guess. One thing I have noticed about his followers, both when I was in Hawaii and later in Europe, was that nearly all of them were business people and a whole lot of them were instant pop-up gurus. There's many of them scattered all over the landscape these days but that's not really any of my business is it?

I'm thinking of writing a book along the lines of “Crime, Money and Spiritual Fraud”. I've certainly got the details and info. Ramana Maharshi was dead set against people charging money for spiritual teachings and you can add the names of just about every legitimate teacher to that particular perspective. Money comes when it's needed, for the things it is needed for. That's another section but... putting a price tag on what you present in this theater, immediately diminishes, dilutes and compromises whatever it is that you have to say. Certainly you can charge money for books, because it costs money to print and publish them but you can't put a price tag on that which came to you through suffering, trial and experience, if the whole point is to create a dynamic that will spare others the pain of what you went through to possess the priceless. It's a sticky wicket. Money is necessary for certain aspects of the operation but... the day to day contact, the personal contact should be free.

Someone recently told me that I should create paid, parallel websites to ensure that I would have an operating income from all of the things I do but... I figure, when needed, whatever is needed is going to come around at the required time. It's not something I should be concerned with because that is someone, or something elses department. Enough for now.

End Transmission.......

Visible sings: Almost A Capella by Les Visible♫ I Got a Feeling ♫
'I Got a Feeling' is track no. 4 of 12 on Visible's 2007 album 'Almost A Capella'

Almost A Capella by Les Visible


Alan 20 Perth said...

Thanks for giving us something interesting to read.

What are the guru worshippers looking for?

They're looking for a reason to have no reason to be happy.

If you want to learn how to be happy for no reason, watch kids play and try to imitate them.

Kids forgive easily and appreciate what is and love unconditionally among other things.

If a guru told this to his devotees he'll be out of business.

expat said...

I managed to watch Django all the way to the end just to see if Mel Brooks was in the credits. There was a certain Blazing Saddlesness about the film. The prancing pony in the last scene caused bile to rise. The revisionist history of Tarrantino, sigh... Inglorious Basterds will be taught as fact in Israel one day.

Anonymous said...

Part 1

Had to do this as a two-parter.

Got a bit long-winded here, and couldn't figure out what to cut.

You know about 12 years ago I had this, for lack of a better word, epiphany. I had been working at producing my own music day after day after day after day, and I thought about nothing else (mentioned this before in a post here several months ago; my apologies for repeating myself, but I didn't finish that story the first time I told it).

Well a funny thing happened along the way. I began to store up energy inside myself. In the past, I had burned it all up with constant thoughts that centered on self-pity and self-importance. You know, those endless, looping thoughts we all have, "He did this and she said that, and how DARE they do that, blah-blah-blah."

By doing this single-minded work for days and days on end, I was storing all that energy up (conserving it) that I used to dissipate by constantly pinning myself to the epicenter of my own self-reflection (via those looping thoughts). After a period of weeks, and then months, I had stored up all of this previously burned-off energy to an enormous degree. And that energy turned into what the sorcerers of ancient Mexico refer to us "power". (I didn't know about this at the time that I actually experienced it; hadn't read Carlos Castaneda or similar authors' works on the subject; I was flying blind so to speak, and experiencing it first hand).

It got to the point that I had stored up so much power, that anything I wanted to know, I would simply intend that I wanted to know it (holding it in my mind's eye, so to speak, although it's kind of beyond words, in terms of the actual process). And the answers would come to me, as if dictated, and yet, it was more of a scrolling that occurred, in my mind, like I was adjusting the speed of a tape recorder, and I got to where I could slow it all down via my intent. And one of these miraculous things that I tapped into, was the concept of the Playing Field of Appropriate Thought and Behavior. Which is interesting because Visible wrote a piece lately, titled, Swimming Out Beyond the Borders of Belief.

Now, this Playing Field of Appropriate Thought and Behavior, is a very real construct. It is exactly what it sounds like it is - it's a playing field with actual borders (or out-of-bounds markers). And in the middle of that playing field, you will find most of us. As long as we behave correctly, and think correctly, we are not punished. If we begin to stray toward the borders of that playing field, our fellow sheep (aka, human beings), will chastise us. Or worse. Because they have been programmed to do that very thing (how do you stop being a machine if you first don't realize you ARE a machine - the short answer is you can't). Well, once we stray out toward those borders, we'll be accused of being conspiracy theorists. Or worse. You know how it goes. But, the ironic thing, is, the only place you can find truth, is out beyond those borders.

End Part 1

Anonymous said...

Part 2

Truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction approximates truth. And the borders of that playing field, are comprised of the most outlandish fiction, pawned off as being "possibly true", which is available to the masses. All of it's bullshit, of course (i.e. fiction) - from most of the New Age sewage you read in books, to most of the UFO cases you read about, to anything and everything that has received the "Certified 100% Appropriate" invisible rubber-stamping that such garbage receives from those who dictate what is appropriate and what isn't.

The point is, those borders (which represent fiction, at its most extreme), APPROXIMATE (or actually border on) truth. So real truth is only found outside those borders of the Playing Field of Appropriate Thought and Behavior. (Truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction approximates truth.)

Real truth (i.e. knowledge) is never what you think it's going to be. It is a scary affair, when you begin to encounter real knowledge. There's that old chestnut, "knowledge is power". This is true in some extremely deep ways that most of us can't fathom. It has a double-meaning. Most people think of it in terms of its common (or "appropriate"; get it?) meaning - "Knowledge is power, because those who know things that others don't know, well, they have power over others. That knowledge gives them power. In terms of material wealth. They get the best jobs. They get the prettiest girls. They drive the nicest cars. They rig the stock market. They print the Fed money. They finance both sides of all wars. Their parents are proud of them, and their power. God I wish I was like them." Etc.

But the other meaning, the hidden meaning, and the more important meaning, is that the quest for knowledge itself, has to be undertaken utilizing single-minded pursuit of that knowledge, because it can't be arrived at in any other way; why? - because it's found outside the very real borders of the Playing Field of Appropriate Thought and Behavior, and it will cause all kinds of holy shit to rain down upon you, things that pale in comparison to being chastised by the mind-controlled sheep in the middle, once you venture out past those borders. So you have to be single-minded to get there. And thus, the very quest ITSELF creates power within your body/mind/spirit complex, because you store it up during the single-minded pursuit of real knowledge, because you have to shut off your internal dialog to get to that knowledge, and thus, knowledge is power.

I know that's a New Age term (body/mind/spirit complex), hatched in a think tank somewhere by guys who torture animals and humans with electroshock devices (and worse, especially during "shared nightmares" - wink wink), but it's fitting.

So there you go.

Tasty, ain't it?

End Part 2

Anonymous said...

On a side note here (I guess this officially makes it Part 3, which is cool, because the trinity is cool; and you can't really understand anything unless you understand it in mind/body/spirit, hey, another trinity!). Case in point, regarding the sheep who operate inside the borders of the Playing Field of Appropriate Thought and Behavior (while thinking they are purveyors of truth and knowledge; you know, "gurus"). You can see this mind-controlled behavior in action at these very blogs. For example, somebody lays down some real nuggets (some actual truth). Well, watch carefully. In almost every case, somebody is going to start bashing the truth-teller. Some of these people are paid to do that, sure, but not many. The herd polices its own, as they much the grass in the middle of the playing field, as it has been programmed to do. Most of these people have chugged New Age Kool-Aid of one flavor or another, and have no clue that the bartender slipped a Mickey into the pitcher...i.e., they are trapped inside the borders of the Playing Field of Appropriate Thought and Behavior, but they think they are accessing "real truth and knowledge" (just like they've been told they were, by the people who mindfucked them with malice aforethought to begin with). So, these people, who are indeed mind-controlled, they will blast the truth-teller. They will scream when that person exposes something that is found outside the Playing Field of Appropriate Thought and Behavior. Interesting, isn't it. Yet so true. (So blast away. I know it's coming. But now, so do you. And now you know why it comes...and that is some actual truth, my fellow strugglers, who long to escape the playing field forever, just like I do...and knowledge really IS power, who'da thunk it?)

Anonymous said...

Tarantino is still not being forgiven for his "Basterds" and that is quite understandable. However where in Hollywood would one find the money to make a flic about Vichy ?
Nevertheless, "Django" will be watched tonight - in CINEMA with a bought ticket !!
..Nigga this or nigga that, I don´t care.
Nice weekend
..und Leichen pflastern meinen Weg

Anonymous said...

im tired it was 45 here today if you would like another body sleeping on your floor

Thomas said...

haha! this is just pure golden nectar. It sounds like a wonderful experience! (that's just, from my perspective seeing through many veils is like biting into a big, fat, ripe mango) - You make it sound funny, curious and oh so very "Real"! ;D - dancing in those layers where it's not really certain if you're dreaming or if it's actually real... (oooohhh, methinks those layers are not so well-defined after all, Amazing Creation!)

"the lazy way to enlightenment"... COME ON! what the fuck does that mean? - "here's an empty bottle for you, Sir, full of holy water!")

I read something like a bubbling sensation of respectfully restrained amusement in between the lines of this post, and it's like golden, warm light, somehow... strange and beautiful!

thanks for sharing :)

Thomas said...

anonymous 3-parter!

WHOW! drop a nuclear bomb in the comments section, will'ya? Luckily, Truth is utterly Indestructible, and no matter how many veils you throw upon It, or how much smoke is around It, It Will Still Be There, Silently Pulsating... Never to be Caught! Never to be Circumscribed! Never to be Changed!

Big-Up, girl/mister/angel!

Thomas said...

anonymous 3-parter!

WHOW! drop a nuclear bomb in the comments section, will'ya? Luckily, Truth is utterly Indestructible, and no matter how many veils you throw upon It, or how much smoke is around It, It Will Still Be There, Silently Pulsating... Never to be Caught! Never to be Circumscribed! Never to be Changed! Never to be Reached!

Big-Up, girl/mister/angel!

katz said...


this is from "Idiot Abroad", show.


Anonymous said...

Dear Les,

You are a blessing in my life. Thank you.

Tonight I pray for your strength. God bless you.

I have viewed almost every post for the past 24 months. You have enriched my life.

I bought your two books. They are my favorites. Especially the Dark Splendor.

I love your music. You are a lyrical genius.

I have nothing but gratitude for your work, and I have enjoyed the ride immensely. Your work often makes me laugh, cry, think, inspired, love, accept, seek, and so much more. I consider you my close friend, and am sorry I don't write you my support more often. I, like many others, take your work for granted. You owe nothing and give tremendously, so thank you again.

Lastly, please let me explain your “Macaroni and Cheese Casserole Dream” from Petri Dish 2/24/2012. The week before your dream, I had been praying for a sign that the “collective conscious” theory was in some way/shape/form real. I had no concrete proof, and was concerned with believing in something that was merely an idea. Approximately the time you would have been asleep in Europe, my mother called me on her way home from work, buzzed with excitement, “Dan! =) I’m going to make Mac ‘n Cheese Casserole tonight! I’ve been craving it all week, and I can’t wait another night!” She hadn’t made this dish in a decade. Needless to say, she made the best damn casserole that night, and it was a meaningful night for my whole family. When I read about your dream the Very Next Post, I laughed until I cried. What were the odds? It was God answering my prayers.

With Light and Love,


Smyrna said...

'Simony' is what it is called, Vis. Selling spiritual gifts and favours etc. It is a big sin, and a sure, I mean SURE, sign of a phony.

Most amusing and insightful yarn. I LOVE IT. XOXOX etc

Anonymous said...

When it comes to money, "In God We Trust" , means the same thing as, "In Mammon We Trust".

Money is juju which is why there are sijils and Gods and Goddesses stamped or printed on it. If it was just a piece of paper or metal with a number on it the concept wouldn't work.

We are surrounded by magic and yet there are so many who don't believe.

baab said...

I saw the INGLORIOUS BASTERDS as a metaphor for the destruction of Hollywood and the film industry.

At the end of Django,there is a very symbolic act on a big white house..

I would not underestimate Quentin Tarantinos intentions.

As with everything time will loosen its tongue.
Love to you Les.

Anaughty Mouser said...

Thank you for your post.

Bogus gurus to the left of me, jokers to the right - here I am stuck in the middle with you.

Reminded of the saying: wherever you go, there you are.

Just got an e-mail from my only brother saying all conspiracy theories (9/11, Sandy Hook etc) were a myth and not to be believed.

Check out this short film by Oursly called 'where are we now' featuring his wife Jaquelin and a guy named Jones.

the gardener said...

The first time I saw "Pulp Fiction" I was so into the divine that I couldn't bring myself to submit to watching it at a big house party one of my sophisticated city cousins while it played for our entertainment. Felt like it was the marking of the Dawn of the Age of total insanity.

Sheep do have teeth and they can do rough things, especially in a herd, and for many those boundaries dissolve or disappear once you no longer have and toss it out to the herd that 'you don't have a television'.

Kenny's sideshow is a good one today: "Is being a dupe a mental disorder?"

Oh yeah, don't even notice there are borders let alone unwittingly travel outside of them and please-for your own safety do not tell the others what you've found. What goes on outside the borders stays outside the borders!

Somehow many are born knowing there is a 'game' and even how to play that 'game'. Always noses to the wind that someone might have gotten outside of that loop or field.

Threats will come to you sooner than later by your supposed own kind-family usually the worst.

Find out what's in vaccines, decide NOT to allow the freaks to vaccinate your newborn... have the other sheep droning about their 'worries'. Worries the baby will get blind, sick, dead...worried to the degree that they feel the need to call CPS on you! For the baby's sake. Now of course they never thought a thing about anyone giving their baby insidious shots that make a 4 month old FIGHT them. Never noticed that.

For some reason whatever we do that gets outside their fencing threatens them-so they threaten you with their mammon powered forces.

here's a good video about the ...


bee wrangler said...

your words keep me going...cold down here in oil-town. But I feel things a me. I am happy to hear your enjoyiong your is the journey that counts, i am finding out- Jen

the gardener said...


symbols including the sigils that make those pieces of paper valuable:

Being in a land that I'd successfully avoided all of my life with casts of characters known for their utter sliminess and dishonesty as a matter of course I particularly found the part about 'magistrate being derived from "Magi" or "Magus" interesting. One thing about being in the process for years is relaxing enough to notice the utter insanity and ridiculousness about the entire theater.

I had noticed some magical seeming hi and lo jinx going on.

I do believe that most if not all are under spells. Spellbound, programmed to receive. I think the television is a big part of this spelling but it is all over the place-liked how Mr Berrera says how 'the money with its magic sigils is kept on us right by our testicles'... he has a good style of presenting a lot of information in a pleasant way.

Vis... I easily pick up on you and your rickshaw driver... tee hee

I've had a good lesson this week-living where it has been very cold (double digit below zero lows-single digit highs) which I was able to keep up with heat wise burning wood etc UNTIL the power company allowed the power to go down for five hours Monday.

Not a big deal to have your power go down or out, to me anyway, except when it is -12 outside and your well pump runs on electricity and the stream running to keep your pipes from freezing is cut off. Didn't take long for the pipes to freeze up. Maybe an hour until hot was froze up. That's pretty cold to do that.

So having frozen pipes which will thaw out and you have to be ready or your pipes will split and try to thaw them out first hand. A controlled thaw.

But having no running water for four/five days gets one to that level of grungy where we'll all be if that power goes out. Think about all those 'dirty people' and how quick we will all be if that happens to us.

oh for the Sandy Hook noticers of strangeness- here's a good one on one of the children's uncles. A '39 year old lawyer from WA state who's worked for the Vatican and the Holy See for twelve years'...written a lot of briefs about the protocols about the notification process of priests abusing children.

preacher said...

According to one of the comments beneath the Hobbit article, the N-word in that movie is Nazgûl:

"Nazgûl - a common racial slur for a black person riding a horse."

Never heard of it.

Anonymous said...

As Jim Morrison sang in 'The End'--

"...Weird scenes inside the gold mine..."


Visible said...

Nazgul is not nigger; that makes no sense whatsoever and that other justification, pardon me if I demur. Plus, how many Nazgul were in the Hobbit?

Anonymous said...

Playing Field Anonymous--

The sheep on the field manifest their intent to be within the lines every bit as much as one would manifest intent to go beyond the them. Maybe neither side of the border is enlightened. Maybe you just wander onto a different playing field. Maybe it's all just another expression of the Big Dichotomy--dark/light, good/evil, etc. etc. --the same old 2-dimensional playing field that the human feeble mind can tune into and feel comfortable with.

Intent--maybe just a karmic/cosmic circle jerk?

I don't know. I don't claim to know any of it. Who does? Who claims to know? I simply try to render the playing field's limitations irrelevant to my dumbass self.

The sheep are there for a reason--to keep the grass in check, that's all. Maybe the real border is the one between the second and third dimensions of the playing field.


preacher said...

I wouldn't know either Vis. It has been ages since I read The Hobbit and I haven't seen the movie yet. Only read somewhere that Jackson also used some appendages and unfinished stories from Tolkien to tell his tale.

But what other N-word could there be?

Googled a while for it, but couldn't find nothing.
It's a strange article; I had to check if it wasn't from the Onion.

All the best!

wiggins said...

'False Gurus'....LOL. Reading Vidal's 'Julien' -you may already have - It is full of pretentious Stoic Philosphers hoping to earn a 'shekel' or two on the backs of the foolish believers.

Buckeye Steve said...

What in the hell are you talking about with respect to "The Hobbit" and whatever "n" word is...if you are referring to "nigger" they never ever utter that word in the Hobbit, are you out of your mind? If you are talking about Nazgul...they are mentioned in the Lord of the Rings Trilogy but are giant flying dinosaur creatures....what are you talking about?

Anonymous said...

I'm not sure if this is pertinent, but black people often refer to each other, and to people of other races with whom they are friends, as, "Nigga". This has a different meaning than the longer version of the same word, with an "R" on the end. For instance, you have heard the expression, "Nigga, please!". That has nothing to do with being a racial slur. I was living in Atlanta GA a few years back, and had a neighbor who was a young black woman. We became friendly. She would hug me oftentimes before we would part, after conversing and whatnot, and she would say, "You're my nigga." Sometimes she would look into my open window when passing by, and say, "Nigga, you up in there?" She would preface sentences directed at me, by saying, "Nigga". Like, "Nigga you wouldn't believe what happened to me today." So it doesn't always have a negative connotation. In the hood, most especially, this is a common practice. It's considered by some black people to be an endearing way of calling someone a friend. Just a little FYI there. The first time she called me a "nigga" I wasn't sure how to take it. Then I found out what it meant. She was saying, "You're my homey, I like you, we're friends, we are now colorless."

Anonymous said...

Heck, let's run with it. Now we are officially at Part 4 of the Playing Field of Appropriate Thought and Behavior screed. Truth goes on and on, there's is a lot of it out there. So here's a story that was featured in the book, "Tales of the Miraculous", by PD Ouspensky, whose book detailed some of the exploits of George Ivanovich Gurdjieff, who was considered to be, hmm, words fail me, an enlightened man. This quote of Gurdjieff's directly applies to the Playing Field of Appropriate Thought and Behavior that I have been discussing; as a side note, I discovered this book about two years after I had my "epiphany" concerning the playing field -

"There is an Eastern tale that speaks about a very rich magician who had a great many sheep. But at the same time this magician was very mean. He did not want to hire shepherds, nor did he want to erect a fence about the pasture where the sheep were grazing. The sheep consequently often wandered into the forest, fell into ravines and so on, and above all, they ran away, for they knew that the magician wanted their flesh and their skins, and this they did not like.

"At last the magician found a remedy. He hypnotized his sheep and suggested to them, first of all, that they were immortal and that no harm was being done to them when they were skinned; that on the contrary, it would be very good for them and even pleasant; secondly he suggested that the magician was a good master who loved his flock so much that he was ready to do anything in the world for them; and in the third place, he suggested that if anything at all were going to happen to them, it was not going to happen just then, at any rate not that day, and therefore they had no need to think about it. Further, the magician suggested to his sheep that they were not sheep at all; to some of them he suggested that they were lions, to some that they were eagles, to some that they were men, to others that they were magicians. After this all his cares and worries about the sheep came to an end. They never ran away again, but quietly awaited the time when the magician would require their flesh and skins."

That certainly would explain why we all behave in the ways that we behave. I have one more post to add to this, all five of them are connected. So I'll go find that story, too, and post it here, and then it will make a lot more sense (in terms of single-mindedness, what it means, what it can do for you, and how it relates to invisible playing fields and prisons).

wxman2001 said...

Nazgul were not in the Hobbit book per se, but since the movie also interweaves many other of the Tolkien short stories/legends from the Silmarillion, Tom Bombadil and other works by Tolkien set in Middle Earth there is reference to Nazguls, the 9 dark lords who are the lieutentants of the Dark Lord Sauron that is defeated and the end of the LOTR movie and book trilogy.
PS it is just me, or your Captcha codes some of the hardest to decipher in the multiverse for a reason?

Anonymous said...

So here's Part 5 in these ramblings of mine. I can't find the actual story that I was looking to post here, regarding an historical event that is passed down from generation to generation, among inhabitants of the Island of Bali. Natives of Bali utilize the oral tradition for passing down historical truths, as they fully understand that pens and paper cannot be trusted (many other cultures do this as well, knowing that things that are written are often altered to suit the needs of those in power). So I will try to remember how the story goes, knowing I will miss a few morsels here and there, or shade a couple of colors incorrectly, but the underlying import of the story will hopefully remain intact. To the natives of Bali, this story is understood to be the retelling of an actual event. That's why it was passed down in the first place; it actually happened.

Long ago on the Island of Bali there lived a young man who was a wrestler. All he wanted in this life was to be the best wrestler on his island. But every time he went to the mat, he lost. But his desire to be the best wrestler on the island was unmatched, and so, bowed and bloodied, yet unbeaten, he went to see the island shaman, and told him of his problem. The shaman listened patiently as the young man described his overwhelming urge to be a great wrestler, and his inability to win a single match. After a while, the shaman finally spoke. "Go home to your hut," he told the young man. "Hold your vision of being the greatest wrestler on the island, tightly in your mind's eye. Think of nothing else. Lock your doors, close your windows. Talk to no one. But most importantly, think of nothing else but your dream of being the best. And while you do this, think of a force of nature, too, something powerful. When you are certain that this is not a fantasy, when you are certain that this a dream, then all you have to do is be the dream."

The young man went back to his hut and did what he was told. For days and days on end he thought single-mindedly about his desire, and nothing else. Finally, after many weeks of focus and single-minded dreaming, he was ready. He went back to the mat, and began to wrestle again. And he never lost another match. His opponents swore that they could not withstand his power. It felt as if they were drowning whenever they wrestled him, so they would quit mid-match.

For the young man had dreamed about being the ocean.

(A true story, passed down via oral tradition, on the Island of Bali.)

End Part 5 - end of screed. Thanks for watching.

Anonymous said...

Hey Les -- Michael here (recently friended on FB) - that N word story must be a spoof of some sort; I immediately started to see if it was The Onion. But there's no N word use in the Hobbit, I took my daughters to see it after Christmas. And no Nazgul either that I recall. It's a nice film, I think you'll enjoy it. Thanks sincerely for all your work.

Anonymous said...

pierre said...

I saw Spielberg's Lincoln (2012) the other day, similar, but pro N.... oops.
lovely sentimental Rosie Parks attitudes (which i am in accord with), but no mention of the money to finance the War, who were the main slave traders, nor the reason (likely) that Lincoln was assassinated, same as kennedy, Ghadafi, etc ie the right to print Gumments money for the people.
the message was of course that the negros suffered like the jews and the world must burn until we are all free, at convenient interest rates.
they could even tell me these days only what I want to hear and what I hold to be true and I wouldn't believe them.
there would have to be a sequel that would bent if all back to "normal" and "be calm" and "don't be dumb be a smartie, come and join the Ashkenazi party" (Mel Brooks the Producers, bastardised version - where's Goy George?) all the They live messages.

and yes, to give to help others avoid the birthing pains , but also to awaken with a short sharp Zen pat on the back shock. WTF, OMG, a good start for some.

Visible said...

The first thing I checked for was to see if it was The Onion or something. That's what makes it so freaky.

Is anyone else wondering if this guy Buckeye Steve actually read my posting? Steve, I didn't say any of those things, I was just reporting on others saying them.

Anonymous said...

Consumer doggy treats.

est said...

i've read the books,more than once
i saw no derogatory characterization along these lines

to all those who have taken these, and similar adventures

i submit that the written word
is the most efficient vehicle

to leave these bodies behind
to travel further than one mind can

especially when two or more
are gathered in their name

if you have no myths no heroes
no adventure and vanquishing

you do live
in a two dimensional flat world

these words and stories add
a depth not otherwise attainable

as does our gentle host
and his words

a million thanks

Terrance said...

Hello Visible.....Kumbh Mela.....largest gathering of humanity....all my relations...what a long strange trip...only the best "......

Anonymous said...

I have no idea where that allegation of the "N" word came from, it is not in the movie.

And yes, Nazgul are in the Trilogy books. Didn't want to go on an adventure...wanted to stay in the Shire, not see the world or it's wonders and horrors.

Bhaggvita. Also, curiously Gautama's world, was a king named Theodosius ("Theoden")...with a real life court advisor named "Grehma"..."Theoden's "Grima"....REAL PEOPLE of VEDIC culture...there's much more...Tolkien hid it well...go look, closely. I ain't into giving lessons today.

Anonymous said...

Birth control
Usurious debt
Mass starvation
Planned obsolescence
Family breakdowns
Corrupted essence
Enforced Pollution
Racist values
Controlled disunion
Mass hypnosis
Induced chaos
The world insain
angry and dangerous

Anonymous said...

The appearance of the second satirical news site The Global Edition (after the Onion) has left internet readers bewildered. Just a moment ago every article on the web could be counted on to contain at least some grain of truth except if it's on the Onion in which case it's only funny at the moment and usually becomes painful truth much later. A whitehouse petition to ban this new unsanctioned satire news site is expected any minute now. Gordon Duff declared that The Global Edition gets its facts straight almost as often as himself and is considering including their articles as guest postings on Veterans Today.


John C (UK) said...

my comments no longer get published, all helpful, no derogatory remarks.

i give up.

what and who is true?

Anonymous said...

We are the people
We will not move
We stand as one
One life one truth
We will not move
We will not waver
Our conscious force
Crushes traitors
Where traitors lie
And truth does tell
where truth tells
lies are dispelled
And lies dispelled
Is where tyrants fall
And the worlds at peace
Inside us all

Anonymous said...

paper tiger
You need malis gold
Your lies don't work
Theyre dead and cold
The people are strong
Your lies are weak
Your days are done
Soon you'll sleep
And where you sleep
Deep in that pit
With zionist dreams
You lost and slipped
Were crushed and spent
To dust you fall
The systems finished
banks and all

Anonymous said...

via Homer..

This stupid movie might easily have been cut to five minutes running time, if even a little reality is enjoyed.

Something simple..
Say, a 12 year old boy hiding behind a bush with a 10 gauge and what's his name, Mr. bad ass comes riding up..

Still plenty of blood for those who came for blood.

Some artists are experts in portraying horror and terror and lust, but when the dust settles (haha) there's nothing quite like the real thing.

And five minutes is plenty.

Anonymous said...

via Homer..

Also, Isn't the Kalki Avatar at times referred to as - black colored, riding a white horse?

Go ahead, call Him names..

Visible said...

What is it with saying your comments don't get published and there's your comment? Everyone knows or should know, for years now, if your comments don't show up you email me.

Keep in mind that I have to sleep sometimes so there can be 6 to 8 hour stretches where nothing goes up.

Anonymous said...

John c,Dont if this any help but i have had problems with google before,,
Try posting anonymously,,,


Anonymous said...

There's barely a peep about Algeria in the ziostream media.

They don't have control of the narrative, hence, the story isn't really there. This is getting interesting.

Fuck that twisted little freak Tarantino. Fuck zioLincoln. Neither is worth the keystroke effort.


Ray B. said...

Hi, Vis (and All)!

A lot of good postings above; much appreciation to all the truth and depth being shown here...

On "The Hobbit": I saw it a week ago, and have been letting it 'digest'. I did not know 'going in' that it was a multi-part saga. As the credits rolled, I felt some anger and some delight at 'more to come'.

My biggest realization so far is that "The Hobbit" doesn't have the 'impact' that the LOTR movies had, simply because of the Tolkien storyline. In LOTR, you were dealing with the fate of the world (Middle Earth), and whether the bad guys - having a considerable lead - were actually going to pull it off (potentially for All Time). Sam's soliloquy in the ruined city of Osgiliath after the attempted Nazgûl snatch of Frodo said it all, for me. Excellent. Anyway, that's the kind of drama and stakes at risk for LOTR. "The Hobbit" (besides being a 'coming of age' story of Bilbo) is simply whether a Dwarf clan will get their home back and recover their riches. (More back story, of course.) It has much less dramatic space and consequences.

I don't want to 'blow' any details, for those not seeing it yet. The main thing I noticed is the more leisurely pace. The LOTR books are such concentrated goodness that a ten-parter movie could probably be made, and you can see little snips and tweaks being made all-along in the three-parter to try and encompass the whole and be faithful to the intent of the books. "The Hobbit" seems to be a little the reverse, to stretch the one book into multi-part movies. A little annoying in some places, but also allowing a deeper look into Middle Earth history in other places (cool).

As in the LOTR movies, I prefer less prolonged-violence and more 'deep' stuff. It was enjoyable, though. We'll see how it progresses...

Best Wishes,
Ray B.

Anonymous said...

Hi Visible and all,

Well once I heard that 27 animals died during the making of The Hobbit, knew I wouldn't be going to see it. The wranglers are being blamed.

And using the N word in the Hobbit? erm....whah? Like many here I've read Tolkien's books.

I'm saddened yet not surprised that enlightenment has been corrupted just like everything else in the modern world, as regards your location. I realize it's not unique to our times but jeez can we get a break already for what is true? Kali Yuga full tilt boogie. Oh wait, here we are at just the right place aren't we ;) Mooji's vid wouldn't play Vis, (this video is private). Haha looks like they know you're on to 'em.

I enjoyed your latest post very much Vis. Lots to absorb. I'll miss your local friends.

Thanks to readers for all the terrific and insightful comments.

For the record I don't use FB, as difficult as it is to resist sometimes.

Love to all, Peaches

Hong Kong HB said...

I subscribed to Mooji's podcasts for a while, but after listening to one where he told a woman that God didn't care if she left her husband and she shouldn't give it a second thought, I decided his brand of 'enlightenment' was not for me. I'm not a guru myself, or close to it, but I do think that basic accountability is a feature of the spiritual path, and that when it's time to sever a longstanding intimate relationship, one must do so with respect and loving concern for the other party. To disregard that relationship as an illusion requiring no further action, as Mooji suggested, is cowardly and base. You do not escape from the illusion by ignoring it; you play your role with integrity and accept the consequences, which requires a willingness to suffer. It's the unwillingness to suffer, I think, that so often separates false gurus from authentic spiritual teachers. That and the price tag, LOL.

As for the Hobbit, there is not a single instance of the word 'nigger' in the movie. I'm afraid you've been spoofed. I found the movie to be more of an adventure story a la 'Pirates of the Caribbean' than an epic myth on the lines of LOTR, it was still well worth seeing. Would love to see your reaction to it in a future blog.

Anonymous said...

Quentin Tarantino's first choice to play the role of Django was O.J. Simpson, but when O.J. was told that he would only get to kill one woman in the movie, he refused to take the role.

The symbolism of Quentin Tarantino's Django Unchained appears to go unnoticed by most people. The Candyland plantation is the White House in Washington D.C.; the character played by Leonardo DiCaprio is George W. Bush; the character played by Samuel L. Jackson is Barack Obama; the character played by Christoph Waltz is Henry Kissinger; and Django is a pissed-off US citizen who fulfills the revenge fantasy that a lot of Americans harbor.

Anonymous said...

via Homer..

Les Visible prabhu, I have great expectations of you and thanks! for your fortitude.

So near the tirtha where Lord Narasimha sprang from the pillar to bolster the faith of our dear guru Prahlada Maharaja!

From sheer dumb faith alone such a tirtha is worth a life time.

The stream running with its ever red tint from the blood of the demon King, Hiranyakashipu.

The demon King who Lord Narasimha played with like a cat with a mouse..

The stream where the Lord washed His claws after ripping apart guru Prahlada's demon father.

Best of health and trust in our Lord when beholding the sadhus, prabhu!

Don't forget - He knows everything.

Anonymous said...

After the successes of the ultra-violent shoot-em-up revenge films Inglourious Basterds and Django Unchained, Quentin Tarantino's next film will have the Palestinians rising up to take righteous vengeance against the Israelis.

est said...

well the books were not meant for movies
they have been adapted, so to speak
if it has brought anyone to the books
as i'm sure it has, then that is good
really though, some things just need to be read
these books should be read

i spent years on them and many others
it is the shame and crime of our time
that no one reads, anymore

it is the collected record of us all from the beginning of the word
and so much more
just as all our dna stores our heritage
so does the written word

don't be taken in by cheap facsimiles
accept only the real thing
let your own mind connect the dots
not someone else's

read 'em and be in 'em
nothing quite like it, really

movies remind me of plato's cave, every time ha unreal

come on up
into the sunlight

there's a reason why
you rub your eyes
don't get me wrong
i do like the movies

just the books, more
and the sunlight, better

David V said...

Why can't you use the N word when creating works of fiction or music? Mark Twain did it. Now he is being banned from schools and libraries. If the Ns don't like it, they don't have to read or watch it. I'm not saying you should use it to their face. That would be rude, even though they do it themselves.

Totally agree about the spiritual fraud angle. After nearly sixty years of being "properly raised" in a fundie protestant environment, i'm realizing how badly I've been used and lied to.

Once again, please give out some anti-bot words that can actually be read.

Anonymous said...

Little people in Algeria and Mali need to be able to tell their story,,they need access to computers,,,,
The zionists think Africa is a push over,,,the little people may lack guns provisions,,,but there true spirit more than makes up for that,,,,,,
The energy of the Zionist is weak and broken,,having an unnatural relationship to the earth and its inhabitants just strips the Zionist of his naturally occurring energy,,,it needs that natural energy to manuevre that agenda along,,,with out that energy it is lost
It now only has the energy of loss occurring through it,,,
To remove that energy of loss from itself,,,
It must come before the people of the world and apologise,,,,
Then when it has done that and renounced its looted wealth,the unnatural energy will be expelled or kept in its rightful place,,,then the natural energy will manifest,,,the world for them will be seen from a different perspective,,
the zionist will wonder what the hell they were thinking,,,

That be what I be reckoning me heartys,,,,
(Said in my best pirate accent)


neil said...

Calling people nigger is disrespectfull,comes from ignorance misunderstanding and abuse,,,the energy hinged to it only serves to drag the atmosphere down,,,
Ignorance is another weapon of the tptw,,,,
Exploiting difference between the people so they are constantly fighting each other just helps tptw to loot even more wealth,cause more pain,causing more abuse,,,,
Racist values often come with the inability to confront the abuse inherent in us all,that thing that made us committ atrocitys historically and personally,,,over the century's every culture has committed terrible atrocity,,,,
Lets see that for what that is,,,,just plain wrong,,,,


Visible said...

A new Visible Origami is up-

Dancing in the Darkness, where Angels Fear to Tread.

Visible said...

Watching Django, my first thought was, "this creep is looking to start a race war".

Anonymous said...

I really don't know much about quentin Tarantino other than he glorifies violence,,
I hope he is not trying to start a race war,,,I expect the people who are exploiting him would love that though,,,,

Anyway highest respects ... Neil

Ray B. said...

est, January 20, 2013 5:30:00 AM :

You have a wonderful way with words, and I appreciate your in-sight (grin). I agree with you on books, and Tolkien's in particular. Every time I open them, I get 'swept away' into a reverie of our ancient roots. It is the antithesis of the 'sound bite'. I do fear for our younger generations. They have been pre-conditioned to only 'sweep the surface' of things. I hope enough of them can break through this to truly learn.

Best Wishes,
Ray B.

Anonymous said...

pierre said (movie mode still)...

and there I was, watching the new Les Miserables, not just to hear Russel Crow sing for hours, and WTF no mention of the illuminati, Ashkenazi, money dealers, infiltrated Waushauptian freemasons, or Protocols of Zion and their role in the French Revolution. I mean, it's all entertaining and that, but what of the real reasons behind the mayhem? needless to say I am looking forward to watching all the new movies that come out ,looking for a needle in the haystack like looking for a Pope Bears shit in the woods, if only to contradict the Popes claim that he doesn't. better if you catch the bear at it and podcast live, while you still are.
only watch the first intro scene of DJangelo, but half expecting the Trinity Brothers, Rachel Welsch and snake, and drive in shadows on the big screen. derivative to start with.
then again, I have chosen to watch Oz and Walking Dead, so i guess I am asking for it.

Anonymous said...

Django Unchained, Quentin Tarantino’s foul and racialist fantasy

Anonymous said...

"Watching Django, my first thought was, "this creep is looking to start a race war"."

Yes, me too. Blood-drenched revenge movies like Inglourious Basterds and Django are a type of propaganda. The notion that it's just harmless entertainment doesn't stand up to scrutiny. We should always question the motive and purpose of the killing -- any killing. Note that Django even shot the plantation owner's sister, who was never shown to do anything particularly evil. One message we get from Django is that if you feel you have been mistreated, it's okay to kill everybody -- including non-combatants -- as is done with carpet bombing, drone attacks, and house raids by US military berserkers. And by the Israeli Defense Forces.

Tolkein's LOTR oversimplifies cultural conflict by painting one side as (nearly) purely good, and the other side as purely evil. Tolkein's Nazgul and Orcs are soulless -- the epitomy of the 'soulless enemies' of political propaganda. Tolkein wrote LTOR during World War Two, and the name of the Nazgul resonates with that of the Nazis. Tolkein's LOTR lends itself to interpretations of human conflict that pose the purely good against the purely evil; after 9/11 many people equated the Arabs and Islam with Tolkein's Nazgul, Orcs, and Sauron. The propaganda of the purely good (us) versus the purely evil (them) promotes the demonization of Saddam, ObL, the Taliban, Gaddafi, Ahmadinajad, and now Assad. Likewise the demonization of the Afghanis, Iraqis, Libyans, Iranians, Syrians, and Arabs and Moslems in general.

The conspiracy theorist in me suspects that the release of the film The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers (2002) was deliberately timed to evoke an association of Tolkein's Two Towers with the Twin Towers of the WTC for U.S. propaganda purposes.

While Tolkein borrowed themes and characters from ancient mythology,
Tolkein's LOTR is not itself ancient mythology, but a modern interpretation of some ancient mythological themes. It is wrong to say that Tolkein's LOTR is part of an ancient tradition, thousands of years old. Tolkein wrote the LOTR from the point of view of an Englishman during World War Two, and what the ancient mythology 'meant to say' and what Tolkein 'meant to say' are two different things -- in some cases two very different things. Tolkein's LOTR is not mythology, and neither is C.S. Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia; both are modern novels that exploit some themes from ancient mythology. For real mythology, you must read ancient texts such as the Bible, the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Illiad and the Odyssey, Ovid's Metamorphosis, the Vedas and Puranas, the Chinese Annals, the Germanic Voluspa, the Egyptian texts, and MesoAmerican codices.

simple est said...

yeah well
here's a little reading for you

words are a poor second
for what life really is

but it is what we have,
all of us
to interpret and exchange
our experience

flawed as they are, in truth
they are, the highest expression
of our creation, yes our

you wouldn't be here without me
nor i without you

so what exists, actually ?

let me know
as i wonder

Anonymous said...

To simple est:

The Hobbit and LOTR are modern novels, not mythology. Mythology was produced by ancient cultures over thousands of years; the meanings of the ancient mythology are unique to the ancient mythology. The mythologies were not mere story-telling with optional plots and characters, like modern literature. The mythologies encoded the cosmological and religious beliefs of the ancient cultures. When a modern author borrows some themes and characters from ancient mythology and writes a new story of his own, that is not mythology. You cannot rewrite the ancient mythology, altering plot-lines and adding, eliminating, or jumbling characters, without distorting the meaning of the mythology. If a modern author wrote a novel about Shiva, Krishna, Kali, Ravanna, and Hiranyakashipu fighting for control of modern India, that would not be mythology -- just as the Hobbit and LOTR are not mythology.

Anonymous said...

pierre said

movie spoiler alert...

surely the very last scene in DGango (sic) was a metaphor for the Fed blowing up?
(it could be renamed Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory II*, There must be blood Too, the Colorcaust, Slavers - Look Over Yonder, Black or Gay or Three Legged and Angry?- Join the Army).
can't wait for the video game. reminded me of the Southpark game with giant chickens to shoot, and the other one with the evil rednecks.

* leading white character was Gene Wilder, Al Pacino, Dustan Hoffman all in one, and Sol the Lawyer in Breaking Bad. "My name is Fronkenstene, not Frankenstein"

est encore said...

well reasoned there
[i don't agree]
but that, is not what i meant

each of us has been given
an awareness including the

facility to use language to
communicate with each other

what you are speaking of, are
archetypes, as jung, explicated

and of course joseph campbell
in the 'the power of myth'

great resources both, along with many, many others
when you write a book, let me know
i will be first in line to read it

but i warn you
i never pay $ for words

on the flip side
i refuse payment

for anything 'i'
might write

deal ?

as far as myth goes

in the middle of one

'places, please'

Anonymous said...

via Homer..

Sometimes these "myths" turn out to be not so mythical.

Like the Saraswati River, among others.

Anonymous said...


"what you are speaking of, are
archetypes, as jung, explicated
and of course joseph campbell
in the 'the power of myth'"

I don't believe that the ancient myths came from subconscious archetypes as stated by Jung and Campbell. If the myths arose from subconscious archetypes, they would be mere story-telling with random plot lines. They are not. (I'll say more on that below.)

Ever since Jung presented his theory of subconscious archetypes, psychologists have tried to use the ancient myths as props for their psycho-analysis. But I do not think that the original authors of the ancient myths were shamans practicing psycho-therapy, and I think that the modern practice of using the ancient myths for psychology demonstrates a modern misunderstanding of the original purpose of the ancient myths. The psychologists, and people in general, misunderstand the meaning of the ancient myths because they do not 'get' what the authors of the ancient myths 'meant' by the myths.

I think that the authors of the ancient myths were communicating the astronomical, cosmological, and theological beliefs of their tribe, society, or nation in metaphorical terms. The ancient myths were the oral tradition of the tribe ot society, transmitted by word of mouth from generation to generation and spread throughout the world by the migrations of humankind. The metaphors, symbols, and characters of the ancient myths repeat themselves across cultures throughout the world; that is not due to the myths being based on subconscious archetypes, it is due to the great antiquity of the oral tradition. I repeat: the ubiquity of many mythic symbols and plotlines throughout the world is not due to subconscious archetypes; it is due to the global migration (called diffusion) of a very ancient oral tradition.

By studying world mythology as a whole, I have learned that the metaphors, symbols, and plotlines of the ancient myths are cross-cultural and have specific meanings, which are mainly astronomical and cosmological. The ancient myths contain the science, natural history, and religious beliefs of the ancient people. For example, in the ancient mythology, the sky and the cosmos are variously described as a cave, a mountain, a tree, a cauldron, a clay pot, and a beehive. Jesus is born in the cave of the cosmos (sky) and Indra and Hermes keep their cows in the cave of the cosmos (sky). An understanding that the ancient myths are about astronomy and cosmology, coupled with an understanding of the stock metaphors, symbols, and plotlines of the ancient myths, reveals the myths as a global system of ancient knowledge of astronomy and cosmology. Once you understand the stock metaphors, symbols, and plotlines of the ancient myths, the meaning of the mythology becomes clear.

I speak of the 'ancient mythology' because it is an oral tradition, many thousands of years old. Modern novelists who borrow themes, characters, and plotlines from the ancient mythology are usually distorting the ancient mythology, not clarifying it. Tolkein's LOTR may be entertaining and inspiring for many people, but Tolkein's mishmash does not help us to understand the ancient myth of the Ring of the Neibelungs, from which Tolkein borrowed many elements of his LOTR. Modern story-telling that borrows from the ancient myths is not at all the same as the ancient mythology itself, and the modern story-telling usually distorts and changes the meaning of the ancient myths.

A modern 'myth' is NOT the ancient mythology, and it is very important to distinguish between the two. The ancient mythology developed over many thousands of years, and the ancient mythology was the astronomical, cosmological, and natural-history textbook of the ancient cultures; modern novels are not at all in the same class as the ancient mythology.

- Gregory Fegel

Anonymous said...


I'm glad you mentioned the Saraswati River, which many people think was historical and terrestrial. I believe the Saraswati of the Rig Veda is celestial, and it never had any terrestrial counterpart.

Amish Tripathi's novels "The Immortals of Meluha" (2010) and "The Secret of the Nagas" (2013) have sold hundreds of thousands of copies. Tripathi
makes the Hindu god Shiva into a rambling earthly hero like the Mel
Gibson character in the Mad Max movies. Tripathi's thesis is that "all Gods were once human beings; it was their deeds in the human life that made them famous as Gods." Tripathi takes LOTS of liberties in his retelling of Hindu myths, and the theory that "all gods were originally
humans" is certainly not proved by Tripathi, whose Melhula Trilogy is NOT a good source for understanding the ancient Hindu mythology. Just as Tolkein's
LOTR is not a good source for understanding European mythology.

Tripathy has said: "Shiva is a human of flesh and blood, he is not a god. The challenge was to show him as vulnerable. I portrayed him from the back, because Indian gods are never seen from the back. He has battle
scars and a sculpted physique."

Tripathi describes the Saraswati River of the Rig Veda as a real river in the Punjab. Many people in India believe that the Saraswati River actually existed in the Punjab and along what is now the Pakistani-Indian border in ancient times.

I have written a draft of an article, "The Celestial Saraswati River", in which I show studies by modern Indian geologists who have found no trace of an ancient Saraswati River in the Punjab. Also, satellite views of northwest India and its adjoining continental shelf show no paleo-channel for any such river. The Persian goddess Aredvi Sura Anahita (who is the Avestan equivalent of the Vedic Saraswati) is clearly a celestial goddess who represents the world-surrounding cosmic waters, and I can show that the Rig Veda likewise describes the Saraswati as a celestial river. The famous Sanskrit scholar Bal Gangadhar Tilak also said that the Saraswati River is a celestial river, not a terrestrial river. The Saraswati River never existed on the earth; the Saraswati was the river of the revolving sky.

Gregory Fegel

est said...

yes gregory
they had a lot of time back then
their reference points were

in the visible world around them
let's say the natural world

when all's you have in front of
you is 'the heavens' it's easy

to see what the stories will
contain and where they originate

going with that, i would submit
that everything outside 'us'

is also contained, inside 'us'
or it would not exist in the first place

your scholarship seems to be comprehensive

you are well suited to your role,
it seems

my study involves the mind of present day man

and the 'myths' he is creating now in this world, at this time

our point of contact is this blog, and a very, good writer

he in fact is illuminating many
of the 'ancient' truths continuously

you might want to consider what is available to the 'modern' man

we have a lot more than the stars to look at

and although the heavens continue to revolve

we now - right now, are at a
particular time

where it is possible to see
'over the horizon'

and into the deepest truths the void holds

we are writing our own 'myths'
in every way equal to the ancients

after all we have their words
[some of them] and we have
our collected experience

including their conclusions,
always valuable when moving forward

i will not spar with you my friend

we are looking in opposite directions

and in that sense
we will never meet

as well it should be
peace and blessings, to you

Anonymous said...

via Homer..

Time flows on and things unseen become seen, etc.

"Myth to reality: Sarasvati is set to flow again"

Anonymous said...

via Homer..

est, I'm not sure if you've ever seen this but I think you'd find it very interesting.

"Carl Jung: Seeker Without a Guide"

Anonymous said...


In the Rig Veda, the Sarasvati is described as flowing to the Samudra, a word usually translated as Ocean. "As on a chariot, the flood flows on, surpassing in majesty and might all other waters. Pure in her course from mountains to the ocean, alone of streams Sarasvati hath listened." (RV 7.95.1-2)

Satellite images show a paleochannel across the continental shelf of the Indian Ocean emerging from the current mouth of the Indus River, but no paleochannel for any other great river. So a terrestrial Saraswati River DID NOT empty into the Indian Ocean.

Geologists haven't found a streambed for the Saraswati from the Himalayas to the Indian Ocean. Those who think that the Saraswati was a terrestrial river can only point to shallow streambeds that do not empty into the ocean. An Indian geologist who has studied those streambeds reported that they do not contain any sediments eroded from the Himalayas. So those shallow streambeds are not the mighty Saraswati of the Rig Veda.

Tectonic uplift for the region has never been proved, and it is highly unlikely. Even if there had been tectonic uplift, there should still be a paleochannel for the Saraswati from the Himalayas to the sea. But there is no channel. - Greg Fegel

" is generally accepted that their [Vedic] worldview had the world encircled by oceans, a feature likely inherited from Proto-Indo-European mythology, with a "heavenly ocean" above the world, and a subterranean ocean of the underworld. Varuna was the deity presiding over both these oceans, and over water in general." In RV 7.6.7 there is a upper and a lower Samudra, where the upper Samudra seems to be a heavenly ocean. In RV 9.84.4 the moon (Soma) and the winds stir the Samudra. -

"The ancient Aryans, like the old Hebrews, believed that the subtle matter, which filled the whole space in the universe, was nothing but watery vapors; and secondly that the movements of the sun, the moon and other heavenly bodies were caused by these vapors which kept on constantly circulating from the nether to the upper and from the upper to the lower celestial hemisphere. That is the real key to the explanation of many a Vedic myth; and unless we grasp it thoroughly, we cannot rightly understand some of the utterances of the Vedic poets.

These waters were sometimes conceived as rivers or streams, moving in the heaven, and eventually falling into the mouth of Varuṇa or the nether ocean (VII, 49, 2; VIII, 69, 12). The nether world was, so to say, the seat or the home of these waters, called yahvatîḥ or the eternal (IX, 113, 8) and they formed the kingdom of Varuṇa and Yama, as well as the hidden (niṇya) abode of Vṛitra. This movement of waters is very clearly expressed in the Parsi scriptures.

Now waters are described in the Ṛig-Veda as following the path of the gods (VII, 47, 3), much in the same way as the waters in the Avesta are said to follow the path made by Mazda or the way made by the gods. Like the Avestic waters, the waters in the Ṛig-Veda have also the sea for their goal, and going by the aerial way eventually fall into the mouth of Varuṇa.

Many Vedic scholars have tried to identify Sarasvati with the river of that name in the Punjab; but as the latter is an insignificant stream, the identification has not been generally accepted. The above comparison now shows that the mighty Sarasvati, like Ardvi Sûra Anâhita, is an aerial stream, which rises up from the nether store-house of ‘waters', travels over the sky and again falls back into the lower ocean. A portion of these waters is brought down upon the earth in the form of rain by the sacrifices offered to the river, and along with it come the seeds of all the plants growing upon the surface of the earth.” - Bal Gangadhar Tilak, "The Arctic Home in the Vedas, pp 246-48,

est said...

thank you, homer
i enjoyed that

if i could throw out one word
and name it, i would. then stop

as it is, i feel i will spend the
rest of this life, trying to describe it

each of us are given different

hard to know to what end,

but my work has been -given- to me

i will complete it with thoroughness and humility

at least i will try, with all of my being

i'm not sure if 'my' words have
any affect, on the others

my beliefs are perhaps different
than theirs

or yours

i only write down what i'm told to

this is my service and devotion

but without the grace extended to me,

like the touch of those fingers
in the sistine chapel,

i would be nothing

and i only have thanks and

and some really great company
in you and l v and a few others

i see jung did fine without me
it was i, that needed him
and all the rest

Anonymous said...


Suvrat Kher is a Sedimentary Geologist wo trained in the USA and is now based in Pune. Kher works directly on the issues of the rivers and paleo-streams of northwest India. At his blog "Rapid Uplift" ( Kher presents a scientific view of the Saraswati controversy. Below are quotes from Kher's blogs. - Greg Fegel

"The river Ghaggar which flows through the Indian states of Haryana, Punjab and Rajasthan and onwards into Pakistan had dried up in the latest Pleistocene. Therefore it may not have been the main water source for the later mid-Holocene Harappan settlements in that region and also likely was not the river Saraswati described in Rig-Ved.

That's the gist from three separate studies (pages 23, 24, 103) on the Ghaggar river basin presented at a meeting of the American Geophysical Union and summarized in Science."

"The Yamuna stopped flowing into the Ghaggar/Sarasvati and shifted course eastwards into the Ganga as early as around fifty thousand years ago. The Beas and the Sutlej stopped flowing into the Ghaggar/Sarasvati and joined the Indus before ten thousand years ago, several thousand years before the beginnings of the Harappan civilization.

That is the conclusion reached in a paper in Geology (behind paywall) by Peter Clift and colleagues using U-Pb (Uranium - Lead) dating of zircon crystals from ancient channels and alluvium of the Ghaggar/Hakra river.

This is a touchy topic and it deals with whether the Aryans migrated into northwest India from central Asia around 1500 B.C. or so, bringing with them cultural habits and religious ideas that evolved into the Vedic Culture, or whether the Aryans were indigenous to this part since times immemorial. The Ghaggar has been equated with the river Sarasvati mentioned in the Rig-Veda by supporters of the indigenous Aryan theory.

It is described as a mighty river flowing from the high Himalayas. This in turn has been interpreted to mean that the Sarasvati would have been flowing out of glaciers for it to be mighty, and therefore the Aryans must have been present in northwest India before 2500 - 3000 B.C., because there is evidence that since then the Ghaggar became a smaller river. This argument is then taken further to claim that the Aryans built the Harappan civilization. In this scenario the glacial rivers change course only after 2500 - 2000 B.C or so and the resulting water crisis forces the "Vedic" Harappans to disperse eastwards towards the Gangetic basin.

I have stressed that this attempt to link a hypothesis of a mighty Sarasvati to the presence of Aryans is misguided and one that has caused harm to the public understanding of the topic and to what constitutes good science. Many geologists and archaeologists accepted the validity of a glacial Sarasvati without critically weighing the evidence. Taking their cue, in web forums and books, supporters of a glacial Sarasvati have popularized the hypothesis of a late river avulsion and often presented it as irrefutable evidence favoring the indigenous Aryan theory."

See also: "River Ghaggar/Saraswati Did Not Have A Glacial Source In Historical Times"

"Fluvial History And The Fortunes Of The Harappan Civilization"

Anonymous said...

via Homer..

Thanks Gregory, you're always thorough with what's available.

There's also the language/writing issues. Decoding the script is ongoing? Hmmm.

Personally, I'm leaning to Forbidden Archaeology - Human Devolution histories, as you'd imagine.

The knowledge filter sucks.

I'm also wondering about the northwest since the ongoing Fukushima event. How people are coping and if there is an awareness of how it is ongoing?

Best of health to you!

Anonymous said...

pierre said... another coincidence probably, as I was thinking of Jung an hour ago doing outside chores... trying to be honest with my paranoia, and how all these good guy hero types (Jung, JFK, Lincoln, and not so good but still oppositional and tragic, Stalin, Hitler, ... their origins are corrupted and suspicious (as in bloodlines of the Illuminati by Fritz Springmeir)... well Jung was a protege of Freud and split on the issue of concretisation of archetypes (its not all sex and penises) shall I begin to doubt (I doubt it going by what I know and the feel of the guy and his transparency) - It is this reductionism that is basically what you are getting at Gregory I think. the point is the inner dispositions, constellations of ideas, complexes etc and most of all the need for meaning... these things of course use the things you can point at, metaphorically to a large extent, but still proceeding from within. a rose is a rose, but also the sparkle in your mothers eye when you were conceived and in a world of bug eyed monsters, would be a bug. I dont think you can reduce it to "out there" for dummies (maybe "in there" for dummies).
thought experiment, take Jane Fonda (in 1971) as a clone, take a harem of them, brought up by (kinky) computers, like Lord of the Flies but nascent not decadent (grin), and sooner or later their society will have similar myths.
yes in a different galaxy (from which i write apparently), there wont be a goat constellation, but there will be something randy and Dionysian (or whatever), given the need to breed, regulate, prosper, and stay sane.
although the essence of the UNconscious (a SUBtle difference) is I Don't know, but this thing is like that thing. that is not to mistake the meanings for the thing in itself upon which those archetypes are, essentially, projections (and communicated, communicator promoted from village idiot to village guru, sells books etc). (I am but a Clown training to become a Fool).
(theres one for Goy George if he's around, Beatles, Fool on the Pill (anti big pharma)).
all that said, theres the Forbidden Archeology and supreme brain washing (constent with Jungs Its there but I really dont know approach), like Frank Herberts Bene Geserit top down mythology - icing on the cake still IMO.

Anonymous said...


We're concerned about the Fuku fallout, which should rain out here in the NW; but no one I know owns a geiger.

I think that an oral tradition of astronomy, cosmology, and religion was well established by 50,000 years ago and traveled throughout the world with human migrations, remaining largely intact cross-culturally, with local variations. That cross-cultural mythology included a very ancient knowledge of the Precession of the Equinoxes and the associated Ice Age Cycle, which was the basis of the Flood myths and the myths of the World Ages. A stock cast of characters, symbols, and plotlines appear in all the mythologies, and they totally make sense as astronomy and cosmology. Apart from that, I mostly accept the archeologists' dating of sites, artifacts, and migrations - with a few exceptions, such as the theory that the Sphinx at Giza might be as much as 12,000 years old. My interpretations of mythology are not in conflict with the evidence of archeology; I may disagree about the meaning of an artifact, but I usually accept what the archeologists say about its age and provenance.

Lokamanya Bal Gangadhar Tilak (1824-1920) was one of the first and strongest advocates of Indian "Swaraj" (self-rule). Lokamanya is an honorific title which means Leader of the People. One could say that LBGT started the Swadeshi movement and Gandhi finished it. LBGT's father was a Sanskrit scholar and teacher, and LBGT was in the first generation of Indians to get a college education. LBGT was a math teacher, journalist, editor, publisher, activist, political prisoner, and Sanskrit scholar. LBGT wrote a commentary on the Bhagavad Gita, and he wrote "The Arctic Home in the Vedas" in 1903.

"The ancient Aryans, like the old Hebrews, believed that the subtle
matter, which filled the whole space in the universe, was nothing but watery vapors; and secondly that the movements of the sun, the moon and other heavenly bodies were caused by these vapors which kept on constantly circulating from the nether to the upper and from the upper to the lower celestial hemisphere. That is the real key to the explanation of many a Vedic myth; and unless we grasp it thoroughly, we cannot rightly understand some of the utterances of the Vedic poets.

These waters were sometimes conceived as rivers or streams, moving in the heaven, and eventually falling into the mouth of Varuna or the nether ocean (RV VII, 49, 2; VIII, 69, 12). The nether world was, so to say, the seat or the home of these waters, called yahvati; or the eternal (RV IX, 113, 8) and they formed the kingdom of Varuna and Yama, as well as the hidden abode of Vitra. This movement of waters is very clearly expressed in the Parsi scriptures.

Now waters are described in the Rig-Veda as following the path of the gods (RV VII, 47, 3), much in the same way as the waters in the Avesta are said to follow the path made by Mazda or the way made by the gods. Like the Avestic waters, the waters in the Rig-Veda have also the sea for their goal, and going by the aerial way eventually fall into the mouth of Varuna.

Many Vedic scholars have tried to identify Sarasvati with the river of that name in the Punjab; but as the latter is an insignificant stream, the identification has not been generally accepted. The above comparison now shows that the mighty Sarasvati, like Ardvi Sura Anahita, is an aerial stream, which rises up from the nether store-house of 'waters', travels over the sky and again falls back into the lower ocean. A portion of these waters is brought down upon the earth in the form of rain by the sacrifices offered to the river, and along with it come the seeds of all the plants growing upon the surface of the earth.” – Lokamanya Bal Gangadhar Tilak, "The Arctic Home in the Vedas" (1903), pp 246-48.

Anonymous said...

Correction: Bal Gangadhar Tilak's lifespan was 1854 to 1920.

- GF

Anonymous said...

via Homer..

Well, we all know there's no such thing as Dwarka..

Anonymous said...


The discovery of underwater ruins near the modern town of Dwarka does not prove that those underwater ruins are Krishna's city of Dwarka or Dwaravati. There must be many such underwater ruins waiting to be discovered on India's continental shelves; underwater ruins have also
been found near Mahabalipuram. The legend that Dwarka was submerged six different times is intriguing; that could have happened with to the rise and fall of the ocean during the Ice Age cycle.

In 1868, Heinrich Schliemann claimed to have discovered and excavated Homer's Troy at Hissarlik in modern Turkey. Today, most authorities on archeology and prehistory say that Schliemann's claim was romantic hyperbole, that Schliemann's excavation at Hissarlik was sloppy and destructive, and that Schliemann did not really discover Troy.

I think that Krishna's Dwarka, Homer's Troy, and Plato's Atlantis were all celestial, that they never existed on the earth, and they will never be found anywhere on the earth.

I think that Krishna's 16,108 wives are the stars of the night sky, as were Krishna's gopis - which is why the Rasa Dance was performed at night, and in a circle. I think that the Yadava clan are likewise celestials, as are Shiva's Ganas, Kuvera's Yakshas, and also the Vrishnis, Andhakas, Bhojas, Gandharvas, Apsarases, and Raksasas.

Krishna's city of Dwarka was also known as Kusasthali. According to the Mahabharata, the Devi Bhagavatam, the Bhagavata Purana, and other Puranic texts, Kusasthali was an undersea city that was built by King Revata, who was succeeded by his son Kakudmi (sometimes also called Raivata, son of Revata). Kakudmi's daughter Revati married Balarama. Kakudmi could easily visit the god Brahma because they both lived at the top of the sky.

Dwarka/Kusasthali is an analogue of Vishnu's abode of Vaikuntha, which is located directly above the Brahma-loka. Because Brahma was born in water, Brahma is also known as Kanja (Born in Water). "The Vaikuntha sphere which is covered with spiritual water is inhabited by Vasudeva..." (Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila, Chapter 5.)

Brahma's wife/consort Saraswati personifies the River of the Sky and Vishnu's wife/consort Laksmi massages Vishnu's feet as he reclines in the Cosmic Ocean. Mary Magdelene likewise washes the feet of Jesus Christ and Mary, the Mother of Jesus, is known as Maris Stella (Star of the Ocean).

The Greek goddess of the sea was named Thalassa, and a Greek name for the Oceans was the Thalattai. In ancient Eurasia, a thali (a bowl or plate) was a metaphor for the Cosmic Ocean of the sky. Krishna's city of Dwarka was built on the site of Kusasthali, which was already under the sea before Dwarka was built on the same site - in the Cosmic Sea. Thalassa's husband was the sea-god Pontus, whose name means the Ocean. Pontius Pilate (the Pilot of the Pontus, or Ocean) "washed his hands" of Jesus Christ.

The Mahabharata states that the Devas held a convention at Kusasthali that was attended by Kuvera and his horde of Yakshas. The Raivataka Mountain, located near Dwarka/Kusasthali, is the Cosmic Mountain of the sky, the seat of Kuvera, aka Vaishravana. The Yadavas were mountain-worshippers who venerated both the Govardhana Mountain and the Raivataka Mountain, which was full of lights and gems; in mythology a cave or mountain full of light or gems is a common metaphor of the sky.

- Gregory Fegel

Anonymous said...

"The territory of Dwaraka [Kususthali] included the Dwaraka Island, many neighbouring islands like the Antar Dwipa and the mainland area neighbouring the Anarta Kingdom."

"In that place [where Sri Caitanya appears] is a wonderful city like an eight-petal lotus flower. In the middle of that lotus-city is a place called Mayapura, and in the middle of Mayapura is a place called Antardvipa."

"Between Bhuvarloka and Bhurloka is Antariksa, an interplanetary space where the Sun is situated. Here live beings like Raksasas, Yaksas, Pisacas and ghosts. They often descend on earth and are generally inimical to humans. Usuallly they will be born later as humans."

Ghosts - "Living entities who are associates of Rudra develop in the third mode of material nature, or ignorance. They are situated in the sky between the earthly planets and the heavenly planets." (SB 3.6.29)

"Beneath Vidyadhara-loka, Caranaloka and Siddhaloka, in the sky called Antariksa, are the places of enjoyment for the Yaksas, Raksasas, Pisacas, ghosts and so on. Antariksa extends as far as the wind blows and the clouds float in the sky. Above this there is no more air." (SB 5.24.5)

- GF

est said...

some times you just got to
take a walk, get your shoes

dusty, shake off a bit a that
pretentious bullshit and join

the real world, you know, the one
where nobody knows as much as you do

seriously though it is
an example, why scholarship

will never trump, intuitive knowledge, as in, spin all the

tales you want, or recount,

as that idiot said :

'while you are analyzing,
we are creating, new realities,

and then, you can analyze
them too'

couldn't help it

nothing personal
you know

you can cut the pie
in as many pieces

as you like, it is
still, only, one pie

Anonymous said...

I'm not saying that the Saraswati River and Krishna's city of Dwarka did not exist; I'm simply saying that the Saraswati and Dwarka were celestial, and not terrestrial. That is my understanding from reading the Vedic and Puranic texts. Nor have I seen any convincing physical evidence for a Saraswati or Dwarka on the earth.

Hindu fundamentalists may claim that my astronomical interpretations of the Vedas and Puranas are misinterpretations. I can counter-claim that it is the fundamentalists who are misinterpreting the Vedas and Puranas. The Hindu fundamentalists want to prove the "factuality" of their religion by showing that the Gods were historical figures who lived on the earth and created archeological sites and artifacts for us to find.

I've found that all the mythologies on earth, including the Vedas and Puranas, are about astronomy, cosmology, and religion. I want to understand what the authors of the Vedas and Puranas truly meant by what they wrote - without the post-Vedic revisionism of pseudohistorical and religious fundamentalist interpretations.

Greg Fegel

Anonymous said...

via Homer..

Why can't both be true?

Is the temporary material manifestation (Maya) often described as a distorted reflection of spiritual reality?

I heard many times during my youth; "you think too much."

SB 4.21.27 purport..

"In order to regulate the activities of the living entities, God has given us codes, just as a king gives codes of law in a state, and whoever breaks the law is punished. Similarly, the Lord has given the infallible knowledge of the Vedas, which are not contaminated by the four defects of human life — namely the tendency to commit mistakes, to be illusioned, to cheat and to have imperfect senses. If we do not take direction from the Vedas but act whimsically according to our own choice, we are sure to be punished by the laws of the Lord, who offers different types of bodies in the 8,400,000 species of forms. Material existence, or the sense gratification process, is conducted according to the type of body we are given by prakṛti, or material nature."


"Worship Govinda, Worship Govinda, Worship Govinda. Oh fool ! Rules of Grammar will not save you at the time of your death."

"Worship Govinda, worship Govinda, worship Govinda, Oh fool ! Other than chanting the Lord's names, there is no other way to cross the life's ocean.

- Sri Adi Sankaracharya

Anonymous said...

to est:

It appears that you have the mistaken opinion that you yourself are not "analyzing." The fact is that you have criticized my analyizing because you yourself are analyzing. If you truly weren't analyzing, you wouldn't care a fig about my analyzing, and you would just ignore me. The reason that you feel you need to criticize me for analyzing is because my analysis contradicts your analysis; if you didn't have a competing analysis of your own, you simply wouldn't care about my analysis.

I take long walks every day, and I also meditate with an effort to stop the operations of my thoughts every day. My work, my vocation, is to discovery the true meaning of the ancient mythologies. If you don't approve of what I've learned - if my analysis contradicts your analysis - you have a right to your opinion. But your accusation that I analyze and you don't is disproven by your strong objection to my analysis; clearly you do have an analysis of your own.

Greg Fegel

Anonymous said...

Homer, you wrote:
Why can't both be true? Is the temporary material manifestation (Maya) often described as a distorted reflection of spiritual reality? I heard many times during my youth; "you think too much."

"Why can't both be true?"

Do you mean, why can't the Gods be the personifications of astronomical phenomena and also be spiritual Beings? Well, sure, Gaia or Bhumi can be the living Earth, Surya is the Sun, Shiva is the Earth's Axis, and Saraswati/Parvati/Laksmi is the Cosmic Ocean. Like the Earth (Gaia/Bhumi), every planet and every star is inhabited by an Entity or a Demi-God. I won't say that it isn't possible, because I don't know.

But the myths, including the Vedic myths, also describe abstract functions as Deities of DemiGods --such as the northern course of the sun (Mitra); the southern course of the sun (Varuna); the path of the sun, moon, and planets (Ananta/Sesha); the sunrise (Ushas); and the eclipse nodes (Rahu and Ketu). So, to be a DemiGod, you don't need to inhabit a planetary body or a star; you only need to occupy a position or perform a function -- such as the Earth's Axis (Shiva). The identification of the northern and southern paths of the sun; the path of the sun, moon, and planets; the dawn; the eclipse nodes; and the Earth's Axis as individual spiritual Beings does seem a bit arbitrary. Are we just "anthromorphising" when we assign a Deity or DemiGod to not only every planet and star in the Cosmos, but also to every function in the Cosmos?

The Vedic scriptures do contain passages that contradict each other; those contradictions require us to choose between one version of events and another version of events. So the "infallible knowledge of the Vedas" is naturally subject to some interpretation.

Also, there are philosophical sections of the Vedic literature that give instructions which contradict other sections. For example, many people, including myself, interpret the Bhagavad Gita as an essentially Advaitist instruction that emphasizes the pursuit of Self-realization over ritualism.

"I heard many times during my youth; "you think too much.""

When we were young, the adults and the Authorities did not want us to ask too many questions. Now we are adults, and they still do not want us to question Authority. The blind patriots, elitists, and religious fundamentalists always try to suppress the independent thinkers. The genuine seeker after truth must be an independent thinker.

My study of comparative mytholgy, including Vedism, has shown me that the Gods of the scriptures and the mythologies are mostly personifications of astronomical and cosmological phenomena.

Shri Shivarudra Balayogi, who I regard as my Guru, has stated that (I paraphrase) "the Gods are not real; they are impermanent. They are not the One. So instead of worshipping or meditating on the Gods, we should worship and meditate on the One God."

Since there is only One God, there is only One God we need to worship. Everything else, including all of the DemiGods, is impermanent and unreal.

Jai Guru Brahman,
Greg Fegel

est said...

you are correct about that Greg

i should not have said anything

i would rather be wise than smart

though many times i am neither

Anonymous said...

via Homer..

Gregory, thanks for your input, your interest.

When I say why not both, Gangadevi springs to mind.

The Srimad-Bhagavatam is the literary incaranation of Lord Krsna Himself (1.3.40). Therefore, the Srimad-Bhagavatam is complete by Himself and all questions are answered by this text.

Lord Caitanya stated in this regard (Srimad-Bhagavatam intro):

"The Vedic injunctions are self-authorized, and if some mundane creature adjusts the interpretations of the Vedas, he defies their authority....[Vyasadeva's] work, the Vedanta-sutra, is as dazzling as the midday sun, and when someone tries to give his own interpretations on the self-effulgent sunlike Vedanta-sutra, he attempts to cover this sun with the cloud of his imagination."

"...the Lord can be known only by the sincere mood of eagerness for service."

Anonymous said...

To Homer:

In the Vedic scriptures, every version of the life of Ganga states that she was raised in the heavens under the tutelage of Brahma. One version says that Ganga's father was Brahma and another version says that Ganga's father was Himavan - perhaps Brahma and Himavan are the same Deity, no?

Ganga fell from Brahmaloka to the top of Shiva's head and thence to the Himalayas. As Ganga traveled to the nether-worlds, she created a different stream (the Ganges River in India) to remain on Earth to help purify unfortunate souls there. The celestial Ganga is the only river to flow through all of the Three Worlds – Swarga (Heaven), Prithvi (Earth) and, Patala (the netherworld or Hell), and thus Ganga is called "Tripathaga" (one who travels the Three Worlds) in the Sanskrit language.

In Sanskrit and several other Indo-Aryan languages, the Milky Way is called Akash Ganga (the Ganges of the Heavens), and the Ganges and the Milky Way are considered to be analogs of each other. Kshira (milk) is an alternative name for the Milky Way in Hindu Sanskrit texts.

The description of Ganga in the Epics and Puranas makes her clearly, and primarily, celestial - the personification of the Milky Way - and secondarily, the Ganges River in India.

The Hindus regard the Ganges as an extension of the Milky Way, the ancient Egyptians regarded the Nile as an extension of the Milky Way, and the ancient Chinese regarded the Yellow River as an extension of the Milky Way.

"The Vedic injunctions are self-authorized, and if some mundane creature adjusts the interpretations of the Vedas, he defies their authority....[Vyasadeva's] work, the Vedanta-sutra, is as dazzling as the midday sun, and when someone tries to give his own interpretations on the self-effulgent sunlike Vedanta-sutra, he attempts to cover this sun with the cloud of his imagination."

Srila Prabhupada wrote copious commentaries on various Shastras. If the Shastras are self-explanatory and need no interpretation, why have so many Sages, including Prabhupada, written commentaries on the Shastras?

"...the Lord can be known only by the sincere mood of eagerness for service."

Wouldn't that make all of the Shastras useless?

Jai Bhagavan.
- Greg Fegel

Anonymous said...

via Homer..

Jai Bhagavan, indeed!

Nityananda Prabhu ki jai!



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